E10 fuel

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Tezzler
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:01 pm
Location: Salford

E10 fuel

Postby Tezzler » Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:16 pm

Hi, the government has announced that it will be changing petrol to E10 later this year, obviously the gpz is an old beast so will it still run ok on this fuel.
I am aware that we don't have issues with electric fuel ignition through having carbs, but will these need adjusting and also will the fuel lines need changing.

Anybody know??

yanw
Posts: 548
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:54 pm
Location: Gloucester

Re: E10 fuel

Postby yanw » Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:54 am

E10 is already out in some places. It will eat fuel lines and clog brass components in standard carbs. Jetting won't need to be changed.

"Super-plus" fuel is staying as E5 (5% ethanol) and old bikes like the GPZ are advised to use this.

I have also started using fuel stabilisers like this (even with the E5 stuff) : https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/254800300345

Tezzler
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:01 pm
Location: Salford

Re: E10 fuel

Postby Tezzler » Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:56 am

Thanks for the reply yanw

I'll have a look at that link you have attached, would there be any kits out there to upgrade the fuel lines and carbs in the future does anyone know?

Just thinking long term, great to hear that super unleaded is remaining. I'm showing my age a bit, but I can actually remember when leaded petrol was removed, petrol stations still stocked it initially but then it slowly went away as cars updated. I have a feeling that this will happen to long term... Well anything requiring oil as fuel will disappear long term... And I don't fancy changing the bike to electric 😂😂

yanw
Posts: 548
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:54 pm
Location: Gloucester

Re: E10 fuel

Postby yanw » Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:56 am

If you replace the fuel lines you still have the issues with the brass in the carbs I think. I purchased a small 30ml aromatherapy oil bottle to take a full (plus a bit) tanks worth of stabiliser with me. It works out at 1.4ml per litre.

CliveM
Posts: 606
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:19 pm

Re: E10 fuel

Postby CliveM » Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:11 pm

I'm showing my age a bit, but I can actually remember when leaded petrol was removed, petrol stations still stocked it initially but then it slowly went away as cars updated.
Reckon most of us are ahead of you there bud! I had a Ford Sierra for years that only ran on 4 Star and at the time every petrol station had at least one pump still available for such vehicles. I remember back in 2001 when those fuel protests were on, no cars could get unleaded, but plenty of 4star for my old car! After that nonsense the company I worked for got me a Rover 75 - the petrol version and that was a disaster of a car (cylinder head). Anyway I'm totally confused about this E10 shit nonesense, so I'll just keep putting the Gulf Premium in from my local. That's the car incidentally, a 2016 Volvo. The bike is now officially off the road and in long term storage - aka back of the garage.

john
Posts: 3965
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:48 pm

Re: E10 fuel

Postby john » Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:41 pm

Tezzler wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:56 am
Thanks for the reply yanw

I'll have a look at that link you have attached, would there be any kits out there to upgrade the fuel lines and carbs in the future does anyone know?

Just thinking long term, great to hear that super unleaded is remaining. I'm showing my age a bit, but I can actually remember when leaded petrol was removed, petrol stations still stocked it initially but then it slowly went away as cars updated. I have a feeling that this will happen to long term... Well anything requiring oil as fuel will disappear long term... And I don't fancy changing the bike to electric 😂😂
ROFL, not showing my age (much, :lol: ) but when I first started buying petrol, (for road use) it was two shillings and tuppence a GALLON, :shock: thats 11p in todays money for 4.5 ltr's :lol: :lol: :lol:


The main problem with ethanol (apart from sinking to the bottom of the fuel tank and collecting water if left for any length of time) is it is not compatible with certain types of rubber...it turns them to jelly. Any nitrile rubber in the system...eg fuel pipes or O rings...will be eaten away leading to bits of rubber ending up where bits of rubber have no rite being..eg, float bowls in our case.
Float needle tips are not affected as these are made of Viton rubber.
To play safe in using E10, you can use Tygon fuel tube (all my bikes are on Tygon) as it is ethanol safe. The problem will be the carbs. They will need to be removed and have the fuel rail O rings changed to Viton O rings and (this is the one people forget about) the very small O ring on the pilot needle adjuster will need to be changed.
Changing these should cover you for running on E10

john
Posts: 3965
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:48 pm

Re: E10 fuel

Postby john » Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:15 pm

This is the Kawasaki official list of bikes that are E!0 compatible,

Kawasaki
The below Kawasaki motorcycle models are compatible with E10 petrol from the year of manufacture stated. If your model is not listed, or it was manufactured before the stated year you should continue to use E5 petrol:

KLX125 - 2010
D-Tracker 125 - 2010
KLX250 - 2008
Ninja 250R - 2008
Ninja ZX-6R - 2007
ER-6n - 2006
ER-6f - 2006
Versys - 2007
Z750 - 2007
W800 - 2011
VN900 - 2006
Z1000 - 2009
Z1000SX - 2011
Ninja ZX-10R - 2006
ZZR1400 - 2006
1400GTR - 2008
VN1700 - 2009
VN2000 – 2008


Funnily enough the EX/GPZ is not on the list, :lol: :lol:

It looks like we may not need to worry about using E10 any way, as E5 will still be readily available.

john
Posts: 3965
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:48 pm

Re: E10 fuel

Postby john » Wed Sep 01, 2021 7:35 pm

I've borrowed this from the FBHVC which I've been a member of for a long time, well worth a read,

Our fuels specialist Nigel Elliott has received some new questions with regards to ethanol and the use of E10 in historic vehicles and his thoughts are as follows:

Further advice on ethanol with respect to fuel additives.
Ethanol and aftermarket fuel additives

There are three key areas of concern with Ethanol compatibility with historic and classic vehicle fuel systems:

Corrosion of metal components
Elastomer compatibility - swelling, shrinking and cracking of elastomers (seals and flexible pipes) and other unsuitable gasket materials
Air/fuel ratio enleanment
Corrosion of metal components
Ethanol has increased acidity, conductivity and inorganic chloride content when compared to conventional petrol which can cause corrosion and tarnishing of metal components under certain conditions. These characteristics are controlled in the ethanol used to blend E5 and E10 European and UK petrol by the ethanol fuel specification BS EN15376 in order to help limit corrosion.

Corrosion inhibitor additives can be very effective in controlling ethanol derived corrosion and are recommended to be added to ethanol in the BS EN15376 standard. It is not clear if corrosion inhibitors are universally added to ethanol for E5 and E10 blending so as an additional precaution it is recommended that aftermarket corrosion inhibitor additives are added to E5 and E10 petrol.

These aftermarket ethanol corrosion inhibitor additives often called ethanol compatibility additives are usually combined with a metallic valve recession additive (VSR) and sometimes an octane booster and have been found to provide good protection against metal corrosion in historic and classic vehicle fuel systems.

Elastomer compatibility
As the ethanol molecule is smaller and more polar than conventional petrol components, there is a lower energy barrier for ethanol to diffuse into elastomer materials. When exposed to petrol/ethanol blends these materials will swell and soften, resulting in a weakening of the elastomer structure. On drying out they can shrink and crack resulting in fuel leaks.

Some aftermarket ethanol compatibility additives claim complete protection for operating historic and classic vehicles on E10 petrol. The FBHVC is not aware of, or has tested any additives that claim complete fuel system protection with respect to elastomer and gasket materials for use with E10 petrol. The FBHVC therefore recommends that elastomer and gasket materials are replaced with ethanol compatible materials before operation on E10 petrol.


Air/fuel ratio enleanment
Ethanol contains approximately 35% oxygen by weight and will therefore result in fuel mixture enleanment when blended into petrol. Petrol containing 10% ethanol for example, would result in a mixture-leaning effect equivalent to approximately 2.6%, which may be felt as a power loss, driveability issues (hesitations, flat spots, stalling), but also could contribute to slightly hotter running. Adjusting mixture strength (enrichment) to counter this problem is advised to maintain performance, driveability and protect the engine from overheating and knock at high loads.

Modern 3-way catalyst equipped vehicles do not require mixture adjustment to operate on E10 petrol because they are equipped with oxygen (lambda) sensors that detect lean operation and the engine management system automatically corrects the fuel mixture for optimum catalyst and vehicle operation.

Operating classic and historic vehicles on E10 petrol
If you should decide to make the necessary vehicle fuel system modifications together with the addition of an aftermarket additive to operate your classic or historic vehicle on E10 petrol. The FBHVC strongly recommends that you regularly check the condition of the vehicle fuel system for elastomer and gasket material deterioration and metallic components such as fuel tanks, fuel lines and carburettors for corrosion. Some plastic components such as carburettor floats and fuel filter housings may be become discoloured over time. Plastic carburettor float buoyancy can also be affected by ethanol and carburettors should be checked to ensure that float levels are not adversely affected causing flooding and fuel leaks.

Ethanol is a good solvent and can remove historic fuel system deposits from fuel tanks and lines and it is advisable to check fuel filters regularly after the switch to E10 petrol as they may become blocked or restricted. If your vehicle is to be laid up for an extended period of time, it is recommended that the E10 petrol be replaced with ethanol free petrol which is available from some fuel suppliers. Do not leave fuel systems dry, as this can result corrosion and the shrinking and cracking of elastomers and gaskets as they dry out.

KnackeredSailor
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2021 5:39 pm

Re: E10 fuel

Postby KnackeredSailor » Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:09 am

So the change to E10 has happened, down here in Cornwall anyway and the number of garages still having E5 (Super unleaded) is tiny. Going any distances away from major filling stations is going to be a right pain. I live near St Austell the biggest town in the county and there is just one pump available the next nearest over 10 miles. Websites don't state whether they are still carrying E5 and none of the supermarkets are so if anyone can create an app get busy.

CliveM
Posts: 606
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:19 pm

Re: E10 fuel

Postby CliveM » Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:37 pm

I think the petrol retailers could have done a much better job by colour coding the pumps E10/E5 or something. I fueled the car up recently and casually asked the pump attendant if she knew what pumps were E5/E10. Needless to say she didn't have a clue. In the past they colour coded diesel pumps black for the thick sods who kept putting diesel into petrol cars. So maybe the retailers should get their act together and
colour code the pumps again. I'm sticking with E5 whatever......


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